Was Catharine of Aragon Anorexic?

[Blue Clover]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/you/article-1326591/Was-Henry-Vllls-wife-anorexic-Catherine-Aragons-secret-problem.html

[Hale]

I've just read this article and found it fascinating.  In this article the claim is that Arthur and Catherine never consummated their marriage and yet it is also reported that the next day Arthur boasted and said,  "I have been deep in Spain".  So not really sure what the truth is here.  Nevertheless I never knew about Catherine's eating disorder.

[Blue Clover]

Hale,
Thanks for that tidbit about Author bragging, that is the first I've heard of the marriage being consummated. I agree, the article was interesting and insightful, especially the bit about anorexia as a possible cause for Catherine's problems conceiving more children. Without this issue her fate, as well as Henry VIII, and England's may have been very different.

[amabel]

Hale,
Thanks for that tidbit about Author bragging, that is the first I've heard of the marriage being consummated. I agree, the article was interesting and insightful, especially the

Sounds rather odd to me to diagnose at a distance of centuries.  Catherine was very religious and fasted a Lot but it seems unlikely that it seriously damaged her health, and IIRC she conceived about 5 or 6 children.. but like many mothers in the 16th C many of the children were born dead or died soon after birth....

as for Arthur's remarks, they were brought up at the time of the Annulment hearings to determine if the marriage might have been consummated.. so it is hardly news. and they are hearsay evidence and  IMO the marriage wasn't consummated....

[Hale]

Yet, when Mary Tudor was young the Tudor court set about trying to arrange a marriage for her.  There were a few European royals who questioned the legality of Henry's marriage because of the fact that Catherine had been married to Arthur.

I can't remember what the ailment called, but several months ago there was a wonderful programme on the History channel called Royal Diseases and apparently a simple aspirin a day may have help Catherine to conceive so I am wondering did she have some sort of thickening of the blood which may have effected her womb?

[amabel]

Yet, when Mary Tudor was young the Tudor court set about trying to arrange a marriage for her.  There were a few European royals who questioned the legality of Henry's marriage because of the fact that Catherine had been married to Arthur.

I

I think that was just diplomatic talk .  The Pope had given a dispensation for the marriage and IIRC it even covered the possibility that the marriage with Arthur mgith have been consummated...
but  most of European royals were interrelated, and so dispensations for marriages between relations were common enough in royal marriage.  But if you wanted to get OUT of a Royal marriage the best thing was to fish around and see if possibly a couple had married and were realated to each other and they hadn't got a dispensation or there might be some flaw in the dispensation..

I dont think that anyone seriously doubted that hte marriage was legal... it was just the usual sort of ambassadorial talk

[Lady of Hay]

Well, I would agree that many disorders that we are just now beginning to acknowledge and diagnose have always been there throughout history.  And, women certainly even back then could have had eating disorders, however, whether Catherine of Aragon did or not I do not believe it had anything to do with the sad life that she lived or brought about her downfall.  There were simply too many other unfortunate factors. 

Unfortunately, for royals it was the constant inbreeding through generations that could have been a factor.  Henry VIII and Catherine were 3rd cousins once removed and 4th cousins.  Which is not horrible but even their parents were cousins.  Henry was related to his other wives but it was more distant.  In that time, people in their position were probably not eating the right kinds of foods or had the proper nutrients.  The belief was that vegetables and other healthy things like whole grains were for the people below them.  Also, nature always produces more females than males.  But the biggest factor was, I think, the fact that her husband was crazy.  For all the few good things Henry VIII did as a King, he allowed his obsession for a male heir to consume him and in doing so did damage to his country.  Given the sad life Catherine lead and her nutty husband who could blame her for having an eating disorder.

As for the claim she slept for Arthur.  I do not believe it.  Catherine had a strong religious up bringing and was a very religious woman it is unlikely she would have lied.  And, if you throw out the religious views, Catherine was Henry VIII's wife and Mary Tudor was his legimate heir.

[Lothwen]

I doubt Catherine was anorexic.

Remember, she gave birth to a son, who only lived for a week or so, and then he passed away.  So I think what happened was she got more and more stressed each time she had a pregnancy, which could have resulted in her miscarriages.  Also too, remember that they drank a lot of wine back then, because water was not sanitary, so that could have resulted in her failed pregnancies. 

[sandy]

The legality of the marriage of Catherine and Henry was not brought up diplomatically until Henry instigated the "King's Great Matter" having "doubts" the marriage was legal. Princess Mary was actually a "catch" on the marriage market before Henry wanted out of his marriage to Catherine. She was betrothed to Charles V (her cousin) then when Charles broke the engagement (he would have had to wait for Mary to come of age to marry and married someone else instead), she was betrothed to the Dauphin of France. Also Mary's Hapsburg cousins never saw her parents marriage as illegal.  When Henry made Mary illegitimate she was downgraded from Princess Mary to The Lady Mary and had to wait on her young half sister Elizabeth, whom Henry made his legitimate heir after  he married Anne BOleyn. At that point, Henry didn't even try to make a match particularly since if she married a Habsburg she and her husband could potentially rebel against him, since the Habsburg's considered Mary the legitimate heir to the throne.

It should be pointed out also that Henry came from a family where many of his siblings passed on. He was born one of three sons and there were also four daughters. Princesses Elizabeth and Catherine, henry's sisters died as children, Catherin in infancy. And another son Edmund died in infancy. Children dying young and miscarriages were not that rare back then. Anne Boleyn had 3 pregnancies, and only her daughter Elizabeth survived. Prince Henry, Catherine and Henry's son Prince Henry died  after ca 52 days because he caught an illness--not necessarily anything to do with his birth or its circumstances or anything to do with Catherine's pre natal care.

I doubt Catherine slept with Arthur. I doubt she lied. A religious woman like Catherine would particularly not have lied.   If she lied, wouldn't she feel a great deal of guilt seeing her sympathizers like Thomas More be executed because they backed her (and believed she was telling the truth about the marriage not being consummated).

[amabel]

IIRC Thomas More's execution wasn't because of denying the royal supremacy... he didn't express an opinion as to the validty of Henry's marriages...

[cinrit]

IIRC Thomas More's execution wasn't because of denying the royal supremacy... he didn't express an opinion as to the validty of Henry's marriages...

Thomas More (along with John Fisher) was executed for High Treason.  In particular, he would not sign the Act of Supremacy, would not acknowledge Henry's annulment from Catherine, and refused to swear allegiance to the Act of Succession. 

Cindy

[amabel]

IIRC Thomas More's execution wasn't because of denying the royal supremacy... he didn't express an opinion as to the validty of Henry's marriages...

Thomas More (along with John Fisher) was executed for High Treason.  In particular, he would not sign the Act of Supremacy, would not acknowledge Henry's annulment from Catherine, and refused to swear allegiance to the Act of Succession. 

Cindy

I thought that he was willing to swear to the Act of Succession on the ground that parliament could do what it liked as regards the succession - that was just a legal matter, but he could not swear allegiance to the king as head of the Church because that was a religious matter and as is said in the play "Man for All Seasons" " Parliament had not the competence to settle a religious matter.. the head of the Church was the Pope.... and not Henry...

[sandy]

More did not swear allegiance. Henry was infuriated because of this.

[Hale]

Moore remained silent on these matters because that was his best defence.  However, he was convicted because witnesses perjured themselves claiming that he did make comments and that those comments expressed his disapproval.  Hence Moore was convicted on hearsay evidence, hearsay evidence which was based on lies.

Fisher on the other hand refused to sign the Act of Supremacy because he believed that the Pope and not the King was the head of the true church and said so.

[cinrit]

I thought that he was willing to swear to the Act of Succession on the ground that parliament could do what it liked as regards the succession - that was just a legal matter, but he could not swear allegiance to the king as head of the Church because that was a religious matter and as is said in the play "Man for All Seasons" " Parliament had not the competence to settle a religious matter.. the head of the Church was the Pope.... and not Henry...

Movies aren't the most reliable historical sources.  I usually end up with the "Grrr" factor when I see most movies based on history.  History is so full of drama, I'll never understand why the screenwriters, directors, and producers feel they have to beef up the facts to make it more exciting.   

Cindy

[Diandra]

I doubt Catherine was anorexic and I doubt that this disease were the cause of the miscarriages.

Studies have shown that the age of the father - not the mother - is the cause of miscarriages.

I think that The King had serious problems with his health and that was the cause ogf the miscarriages that Catheringe and Anne Boleyn was suffering.

[sandy]

It should also be recalled out of the King's four children (including the illegitimate Henry Fitzroy), only ONE live past the age of 50 (Elizabeth I lived to ca. age 70). Edward VI was sickly and died at age 16. Henry Fitzroy also died at a young age. Mary I, Katherine's surviving child, was in poor health after the drama of her father's divorce from her mother and she lived until only her early forties.  Anne Boleyn had one surviving daughter and two miscarriages. It was not just Katherine.

[amabel]

Moore remained silent on these matters because that was his best defence.  However, he was convicted because witnesses perjured themselves claiming that he did make comments and that those comments expressed his disapproval.  Hence Moore was convicted on hearsay evidence, hearsay evidence which was based on lies.

Fisher on the other hand refused to sign the Act of Supremacy because he believed that the Pope and not the King was the head of the true church and said so.

I agree that More remained silent, but IIRC he did not refuse to accept the act of Succession, ie that Elizabeth was Henry's legitimate heir, (and that the marriage iwth Anne Boleyn was valid) because parliament could make laws to arrange the succession.  However Parliament and the king could NOT IHO make laws to make Henry head of the Church... the head of the Church was the Pope...

[amabel]

I think that The King had serious problems with his health and that was the cause ogf the miscarriages that Catheringe and Anne Boleyn was suffering.

ther's no evidnece of Henry having serious health problems until he grew older and his health was affected by his obesity...

[Diandra]

The father can be the reason for a miscarriage as well as the mother I think. The older the father the bigger the risk I have read.

But it is very interesting - was Henry in bad health in his younger years? I think a lot of expert has concluded he did not suffer from syphilis.

[amabel]

The father can be the reason for a miscarriage as well as the mother I think. The older the father the bigger the risk I have read.

But it is very interesting - was Henry in bad health in his younger years? I think a lot of expert has concluded he did not suffer from syphilis.

I dont know of his being in bad health in younger years, and its not beleived AFAIK by medicial historians that he suffered from syphilis. 

Cathrine was no differnet to most women at teh time, who lost many children during pregnancy or in infancy....

[Diandra]

A bit on the medical history of Henry.

Henry had a bout with malaria, in 1521, at the age of thirty (30). This was the beginning of Henry's health maladies. Henry later would suffer from ulcers on both legs, a painful fistula from 1537, a lung blockage in 1542. He also would get tertian fever in 1541. This ailment resulted in severe attacks and increase in violent behavior, which would occur every other day. Tertian fever or ague was a malarial fever that made its host have hot and cold flashes and sweaty fits.

Anne Boleyn rejected Henry for ten years, until 1532.

Perhaps Anne wasn't that keen on him.

[amabel]

A bit on the medical history of Henry.

Henry had a bout with malaria, in 1521, at the age of thirty (30). This was the beginning of Henry's health maladies. Henry later would suffer from ulcers on both legs, a painful fistula from 1537, a lung blockage in 1542. He also would get tertian fever in 1541. This ailment resulted in severe attacks and increase in violent behavior, which would occur every other day. Tertian fever or ague was a malarial fever that made its host have hot and cold flashes and sweaty fits.

Anne Boleyn rejected Henry for ten years, until 1532.

Perhaps Anne wasn't that keen on him.

How on earth did he get malaria? 

and as fcor Anne, its not correct to say that she rejected Henry for ten years.. She was invovled with him as a potential wife from about 1526 or 27.. but due to his difficulties in getting free of his marriage to Catherine, Anne did not probalby become his mistress until 1532.. at which point she became pregnant and they married in 1533.....

[sandy]

Anne was from an ambitious family the Boleyns/Howards. Part of the reason for her involvement with Henry was family ambition.  Henry also wanted a legitimate son and heir and wanted to marry Anne and have an heir to the throne.

Anne's cousin Catherine Howard was also executed and also was pushed by her Howard relatives.

[Hale]

As for Syphilis, I once read that.  However, for the 500th anniversary of his ascension to the throne some historians decided to go through his medical records.  I was surprised to learn how thorough they were.  The medication described for Syphilis in those days was Mercury, which is nuts when you consider that this can lead to poisoning.  Henry was never prescribed Mercury and now historians are saying because of this they reject those rumours of of Syphilis.

Henry suffered quite a few broken limbs when young.  This was a result of hunting and jousting.  One particular jousting accident left Henry unconscious for over 45 minutes and it was this accident that led to doctors thinking now that this was the reason for Henry's mood swings and hot temper.

As for his ulcerated leg, Henry was a vain man who felt that his calf's were one of his best features hence his insistence in wearing a garter.  Unfortunately this garter was responsible for preventing his leg from healing correctly following a Varicose Ulceration as it prevented the blood circulation.  This is the main reason why his leg never recovered and led to ulcerations.  In the end the doctors of the day felt it best to leave an open wound on his leg.  Basically his leg from the knee down was rotting.  

It was said of Henry that you could smell his approach a mile away.  Literally.

Modified for update

Inside The Body of Henry VIII - video 1:26 secs
Henry VIII's sporting injuries - video 7:11 secs