Well, my curiousity got the better of me . . .

Mike · August 12, 2009, 04:29:47 PM

. . . and I finally bought "The Housekeeper's Diary, Charles and Diana before the Breakup," by Wendy Berry. On the dust jacket are the words, "Banned in Britain." I'm assuming that is just a marketing ploy, how could a book be banned in an entire country?

Fabulous Fake · August 12, 2009, 05:17:20 PM

It was indeed banned as was Kitty Kelley's The Royals. That meant that no bookseller could stock the book.
Not sure if the book is still 'blacklisted' here though.

Knowing your stance Mike, you will absolutely hate the book.
Don't say I didn't warn you. :laugh:

sandy · August 12, 2009, 06:42:27 PM

I don't think the housekeeper was particularly kind to Charles OR Diana. She made a special point of noting CHarles' refusal to build his wife a tennis court at Highgrove and didn't think too much of his doing that. She also thought that if Diana and Charles had had more children it might have saved the marriage.

There are a few amusing passages regarding royal visits to Highgrove by the Queen and Philip and Princess Margaret. It relieved some of the tension.

Mike · August 12, 2009, 07:35:52 PM

Quote from: Fabulous Fake on August 12, 2009, 05:17:20 PM
It was indeed banned as was Kitty Kelley's The Royals. That meant that no bookseller could stock the book.
Not sure if the book is still 'blacklisted' here though.

Knowing your stance Mike, you will absolutely hate the book.
Don't say I didn't warn you. :laugh:

I amazes me a book (any book) could be banned in an entire country. Who decided that in this case?

PS: Thanks for the warning. :) I just scanned Penny Junor's "The Firm." IMHO, Ms. Junor should change her first name to "Petty." Still, I am trying to see opposing sides. Thanks again.

Mike · August 12, 2009, 07:56:26 PM

Quote from: Mike on August 12, 2009, 07:35:52 PM
Quote from: Fabulous Fake on August 12, 2009, 05:17:20 PM
It was indeed banned as was Kitty Kelley's The Royals. That meant that no bookseller could stock the book.
Not sure if the book is still 'blacklisted' here though.

Knowing your stance Mike, you will absolutely hate the book.
Don't say I didn't warn you. :laugh:

I amazes me a book (any book) could be banned in an entire country. Who decided that in this case?

Sorry for the double post, but I just found the answer to my question. This is the forward to "The Housekeeper's Diary:"

QuoteThe book you are about to read was banned in England.
According to British law, no person who works for the Royal
family may write about his or her experience.
In the United States, we are blessed with out First Amendment to
the Constitution which guarantees freedom of speech and of the press.
And so we are delighted to present Wendy Berry's thoughts and observations
from the diary she wrote during her employment.
In the interest of publishing this book as quickly as possible and
offering the reader an insider's look into what goes on in the Royal
household, we are publishing it exactly as it came to us.
That means no changes have been made to the text; nor have
spellings been "Americanized" or certain English expressions altered.

OK :mellow:

[Edit: to incorporate quoted text in quote box]

Fabulous Fake · August 12, 2009, 09:17:55 PM

Quote from: Mike on August 12, 2009, 07:35:52 PM
I amazes me a book (any book) could be banned in an entire country. Who decided that in this case?

Another book I am very curious about is "Diana and the Paparazzi" by Mark Saunders and Glenn Harvey. I'm sure the photos are intriguing, but after reading how they treated her, I'm not giving them a (insert F-bomb here) penny.

PS: Thanks for the warning. :) I just scanned Penny Junor's "The Firm." IMHO, Ms. Junor should change her first name to "Petty." Still, I am trying to see opposing sides. Thanks again.

Hi Mike :)

I haven't read that one simply because its quite expensive. It has, however, gained good reviews on Amazon so I might just think about it. After all,its about the only one I haven't got in my collection. This links to UK reviews
[edit: sorry, link removed as direct links to advertising sites constitute spam and are not permitted on the public boards. Please feel free to PM any such links to members directly or quote the reviews in isolation using the quote box. Apologies for the inconvenience.]

Penny Junor gets a bad press around here but 'The Firm' is a well written and well researched book and imho is well worth reading.

Thanks for communicating in a friendly manner. :)

Mike · August 12, 2009, 11:32:51 PM

Quote from: Fabulous Fake on August 12, 2009, 09:17:55 PM

Penny Junor gets a bad press around here but 'The Firm' is a well written and well researched book and imho is well worth reading.

I have not read The Firm cover to cover, only scanned it into my computer for reference. With Adobe Acrobat I can go to any word in the book instantly and see the context. At first glance, Junor seems to make distinct statements without supporting context.

QuoteThanks for communicating in a friendly manner. :)

FF, my attitudes may cloud objectivity (and I'm working to correct that) but I always try to communicate this way.

sandy · August 13, 2009, 12:47:48 AM

Penny Junor has an axe to grind. Her books show little if any objectivity in relation to Charles and Diana--she is obviously very supportive of Prince CHarles. Dimbleby when he wrote the Prince Charles biography skimmed through some psychology textbooks to give Diana the very very amateur diagnosis of "borderline personality disorder." After talking to Diana and perhaps thinking he could be sued, this was left out of his book. After Diana died, Junor "borrowed" the diagnosis for Charles: Victim or Villain. She perhaps felt "safe" that she used this second hand amateur diagnosis and it would "help" Charles. If she could "prove" Diana was "mad as a hatter" this would help Charles look "saintly" perhaps and "forced" to go back to Camilla. SHe really took some nasty swipes at Diana and I she is clearly not "objective."

However, early on in the C and D marriage before she wanted to "help" Charles and Diana was in favor, she wrote very laudatory books about the couple.

The most objective books IMO are Diana Portrait of a Princess and Sarah Bradford's biography of Diana.

I won't give away anything specific in the Housekeepers Diary but keep a look out for a very amusing conversation Prncess Margaret , Prince Charles, and PRince Philip had about Charles' ears. I'll say no more.

Mike · August 13, 2009, 01:48:37 AM

[Edit: to save page space, please do not quote the full post directly above your own. Thank you]

Thanks Sandy. From what I've read of Junor's book so far, I agree with you. Ms. Berry seems to be on the same track.

Do you know the author of Portrait of a Princess? I have Sarah Bradford's book and use it to, hopefully, settle any contridictions.

Fabulous Fake · August 13, 2009, 01:21:47 PM

Hi Mike :)

Diana: Portrait of a Princess
by Judy Wade (Author), Jayne Fincher (Photographer)

Its now out of print but you might find a copy on e-bay.

A more recent book by Judy Wade is Diana - The Intimate Portrait.

I really couldn't recommend it though. There's more info here. [edit: sorry, link removed as direct links to advertising sites constitute spam and are not permitted on the public boards. Please feel free to PM any such links to members directly. Apologies for the inconvenience.]

btw.... 'The Firm' is not a C&D saga but focuses on the whole set-up of British royalty. I stand by my assertion that it is well written and well researched and would urge you to approach it with an open mind. :wink:

drezzle · August 13, 2009, 04:21:44 PM

Quote from: Mike on August 12, 2009, 04:29:47 PM

. . . and I finally bought "The Housekeeper's Diary, Charles and Diana before the Breakup," by Wendy Berry.

What stood out for me in this book was the absolutely scathing commentary on Fergie -- made it difficult to see her in any other light. Berry seemed quite fond of Prince Edward though.

sandy · August 13, 2009, 08:08:59 PM

There is also Diana Story of a Princess by Tim Clayton and Phil Craig

Junor does get in some digs at Diana in the Firm. Even saying that her adultery was "worse" than C and Cs or words to that effect. I don't hold any trust in Junor. SHe's quite biased.

She's just as bad as a "royal" expert on TV. Getting in digs at Diana and praising C and C to the skies.

Mike · August 13, 2009, 08:29:57 PM

Quote from: sandy on August 13, 2009, 08:08:59 PM
There is also Diana Story of a Princess by Tim Clayton and Phil Craig

Yes, I have that one. Thanks.

QuoteShe's (Junor) just as bad as a "royal" expert on TV. Getting in digs at Diana and praising C and C to the skies.

As noted before, those praising C & C may be trying to stay on their good side hoping King Charles will promote their careers. Diana is dead and can't promote anyone.

Fabulous Fake · August 13, 2009, 09:02:41 PM

Quote from: sandy on August 13, 2009, 08:08:59 PM
There is also Diana Story of a Princess by Tim Clayton and Phil Craig

Junor does get in some digs at Diana in the Firm. Even saying that her adultery was "worse" than C and Cs or words to that effect. I don't hold any trust in Junor. SHe's quite biased.

She's just as bad as a "royal" expert on TV. Getting in digs at Diana and praising C and C to the skies.

Having read the book twice I think you really are clutching at straws there in your dislike for Penny Junor.
As I've already said, I think the book is well researched and well written.

Anyway Mike......read it and make up your own mind. :)

sandy · August 14, 2009, 12:56:10 AM

I admit it I don't like Penny Junor. Generally I don't like people who trash dead people. And what happened to treating people respectfully? THere is demand for it for Camilla but why can't Diana even in death get respect? She did bear Charles' children and is the mother of a future king.

I don't think I am "clutching at straws." I'm perfectly entitled to my likes and dislikes in my choice of books like everyone else. I avoid Penny Junor books. I read books by authors who cover the Firm and IMO do it a lot better than Ms. Junor.

I like Sarah Bradford , ALison Weir, and Robert Lacey among others and autobiographies like A King's Story by the Duke of Wndsor. ALso the biographies of Queen Mary and George V written several decades ago. I don't like writers who have agendas like Penny Junor who I suspect wil be Dame Junor when Charles gets to be king. The Charles VIctim or VIllain and her plain nastiness agaihst Diana to get "in good" with Charles, took her off the list of writers I will ever read books by. And I am entitled to my choice of reading matter other than books that fawn all over C and C and bash Diana. Good research IMO should not include propaganda.

Mike · August 14, 2009, 01:24:12 AM

Quote from: Fabulous Fake on August 13, 2009, 01:21:47 PM
Hi Mike :)

btw.... 'The Firm' is not a C&D saga but focuses on the whole set-up of British royalty. I stand by my assertion that it is well written and well researched and would urge you to approach it with an open mind. :wink:

Thanks FF for the tips. I forget who said it but I remember a person claiming to be a history teacher saying it's best to read all you can on a subject and make up your own mind. That includes authors with opposing points of view and this sounds like a wonderful idea.

Thanks again.

sandy · August 14, 2009, 01:31:20 AM

I would recommend the first hand accounts. I read A King's Story by the Duke of Windsor which is wonderful. It has pics that the Duke himself took of family members. The pics he took has captions where he handwrote the names of people in the pics and always captioning his pic "self". I am going to try to locate the book by the Duchess of Windsor as well. I also recommend books that have published the letters of Queen Victoria to her daughters. Victoria comes across as very human and I enjoy the books with her letters and recommend them.

Another book to look for is the book of royal portraits by Cecil Beaton. Lovely photographs of the Queen and her family, George VI and Queen Elizabeth and family, Princess Marina, the Duchess of Windsor, etc.

drezzle · August 14, 2009, 01:32:58 AM

Sandy, I totally agree............sometimes "history" books are written more with an agenda in mind than with accuracy in mind.

It reminds me of Churchill saying that history would be kind to him because he would write it :chuckle: I wonder if Hitler was the victor, how Churchill might be portrayed now? One thing is clear: reading all the popular books might not give an accurate portrayal of either side.

Jupiter · August 14, 2009, 01:20:12 PM

Quote from: sandy on August 14, 2009, 01:31:20 AM
I am going to try to locate the book by the Duchess of Windsor as well.

I have her book. It was the first book on her I ever read, and I found it really interesting although she was overly discreet on certain things like the Duke's role in her marriage to and divorce from Simpson, and other aspects of her life. This did not do her any favours, as other writers went on to portray her life in an intensely negative way. If she had been more candid, perhaps other writers like Charles Higham would not have been able to get away with the most sordid of their claims. Not to say that she was a saint - I think some of the things said about her are true - but it is difficult to get a balanced book on her.

Fabulous Fake · August 14, 2009, 01:28:45 PM

I've said it before and I'd like to repeat it.

Not for one moment do I buy any of this 'agenda' talk. Imho it is just an excuse to dismiss the work of others who don't meet with your approval.

And whilst I am typing I'd also like to quote this other ridiculous statement from above ''Good research IMO should not include propaganda''
What on earth does that mean? :laugh:

We all differ in our views but to rudely dismiss the views of others devalues any discussion.
Your last post Mike delights me.
You make up your mind and don't be influenced by those who trample over the opinions of others. :)

drezzle · August 14, 2009, 04:24:14 PM

I can dismiss the book by Patrick Jephson as mere propaganda with some agenda. It is a rare person that is pure bad, and yet that is how he portrayed Diana. He later regretted the book saying he was just bitter at the time. How convenient for him to have a change of heart after the damage had been done.

There are people that will put themselves into the service of the royal family for better or worse, right or wrong, and I don't have to respect that when their strategy involves dragging someone else through the mud to make some HRH or HM look better. At best it's just plain lazy.

Another one that was a little too eager to lambast Diana while claiming to be her dearest friend was Simone Simmons. Paul Burrell can be added to that list, along with the Cad who also managed to put Diana in a bad light while claiming some kind of devotion. Most of the available books out there now are not flattering or even favorable to Diana.

Fabulous Fake · August 14, 2009, 09:29:41 PM

Quote from: drezzle on August 14, 2009, 04:24:14 PM
I can dismiss the book by Patrick Jephson as mere propaganda with some agenda.

That really cracked me up. :hehe: :hehe:

drezzle · August 14, 2009, 09:44:38 PM

Fab, nice to see you have a jolly good time. :happy: However, I doubt you really wanted me to clarify the statement that gave you such joy, but you made me do it:

Propaganda: It is sometimes necessary to lie damnably in the interests of the nation.
Hilaire Belloc (1870-1953), British author.

In addition, Jephson had a personal agenda.

Fabulous Fake · August 14, 2009, 09:54:25 PM

Aww drezzle thanks for the reply. :thumbsup:

Still think you are talking ~edit~ though. :laugh: :P

~edited for inappropriate content~

Trudie · August 14, 2009, 11:48:12 PM

Quote from: sandy on August 14, 2009, 01:31:20 AM
I would recommend the first hand accounts. I read A King's Story by the Duke of Windsor which is wonderful. It has pics that the Duke himself took of family members. The pics he took has captions where he handwrote the names of people in the pics and always captioning his pic "self". I am going to try to locate the book by the Duchess of Windsor as well. I also recommend books that have published the letters of Queen Victoria to her daughters. Victoria comes across as very human and I enjoy the books with her letters and recommend them.

Another book to look for is the book of royal portraits by Cecil Beaton. Lovely photographs of the Queen and her family, George VI and Queen Elizabeth and family, Princess Marina, the Duchess of Windsor, etc.

Sandy there are some wonderful books I have also read One of my favorites was Victoria's daughters which told the lives of each of the 5 Princesses and their relationship with QV via letters and each other, Another favorite is about The Empress Frederik Victoria an uncommon woman again the story comes together through her letters. The Cecil Beaton book is fabulous though one Picture is described as Queen Alexandra supposedly taken in the 1920's but the picture is a young woman I think maybe Princess Mary. James Pope Hennessey wrote a IMO balanced book in his biography of Queen Mary that was a totally fascinating read and appeared to be very well balanced. :thumbsup: